CZ52 and Wolf Gold JHP 7.62X25

[Absintheur]

I have long been a fan of both this pistol and this caliber. One of my favorite combos is my PPSh 41 and my CZ52, both chambered for the 7.62X25 round. But while suprplus ammo has been easy to find and very cheap as well, it has been very hard to get a factory JHP and in fact Wolf is currently the only maker. After having this ammo on backorder at several places I finally got a couple boxes. My first impression is that like most Wolf it is a small cavity for a hollow point. Looking closer I could see the jacket is scored, that combined with the velocity may allow for expansion. The ammo is brass cased, boxer primed, and non-corrosive. If weather and time permits I will try to get out this Sunday and try the ammo out. I am going to cheat this time and instead of mixing up a batch of ballistics gel to test just one load I will see if it expands in water jugs and wet newsprint. While these are not my preferred test mediums they will serve to see if the bullet will expand.

In addition to seeing how they work in the CZ I will want to check function in the "Papashaw". If it works in both I will try to get a case or two in my stockpile. Cost wise it would be better than having to buy new Starline Brass and Hornady bullets and reloading a JHP myself.

The test guns....



The ammo....





After I get the ammo tested I will post the results here, will chronograph it as well out of both the pistol and the carbine.

[Old_Painless]

If you are going to all the trouble of testing this new ammo, at least shoot it into water jugs so that we can compare it to other rounds.

Newsprint tells us very little, as it is impossible to compare it to other "newsprints".

The water will give an approximation to ballistic gelatin at a 2 to 1 ratio.

[Absintheur]

I would make a comment here about reading the post I made but I won't......I will point out that I did say in my original post that water jugs would be used as well as wet newsprint. If it expands in newsprint it will likely expand in gel...but I am not making the mess that mixing up that much gel makes to test one round...lol.

[Old_Painless]

I can read just fine.

I would also remind you that this is a friendly forum, and to conduct yourself accordingly.

I made the comment about newsprint because newsprint is a very poor standard to measure against, the reason is that different types of paper and different amounts of water, will lead to different results.

Ballistic gelatin is too much trouble for most of us that do not own a lab. But water works pretty well, and water is always water, so comparision to other people's tests can be valid.

[Absintheur]

I don't own a lab and have found gel is easy to make at home...just kinda messy unless done outdoors. The new Perma-Gel is even easier and is reusable though it does not duplicate Vyse Gelatin especially with lower velocity rounds. The Perma_gel also does not require refrigeration.

btw...I do conduct myself in a friendly manner...

[Old_Painless]

Originally Posted by Absintheur

I don't own a lab and have found gel is easy to make at home...just kinda messy unless done outdoors. The new Perma-Gel is even easier and is reusable though it does not duplicate Vyse Gelatin especially with lower velocity rounds. The Perma_gel also does not require refrigeration.

That was my point. If you are going to go to all the trouble of doing this test, do it in a way that will allow us to compare it to other tests, i.e., use water or BG to test penetration and expansion. BTW, water will almost always give the maximum expansion of a projectile.

If you shoot newsprint, it will not give us any accurate comparision to other tested rounds. Perma-Gel has the same problems.

I am very interested to see if the Wolf stuff will penetrate and expand well, so good luck with your tests.

btw...I do conduct myself in a friendly manner...

Good deal. This is a friendly forum and we treat each other with respect.

From the COC: "The purpose of The Box O' Truth Forums is to allow folks with an interest in firearms and firearms-related topics to have a place for public discussion. We are friends here that share common interests. We will treat each other with mutual respect and courtesy."

You don't have to agree with me to post here, but you must follow the COC.

Welcome to the forum.

(Nice guns, BTW. )

[mna]

Originally Posted by Old_Painless

That was my point. If you are going to go to all the trouble of doing this test, do it in a way that will allow us to compare it to other tests, i.e., use water or BG to test penetration and expansion. BTW, water will almost always give the maximum expansion of a projectile.

If you shoot newsprint, it will not give us any accurate comparision to other tested rounds. Perma-Gel has the same problems.

Although, there is one thing you can sort-of-compare (although not accurately) with a wet newsprint setup with fairly little hassle, compared to the other methods.

Bullet durability in bone hits, that is. When hunting the bigger kinds of game (moose, brown bear, the like) this may be more important than penetration depth - because it won't penetrate if it's all in pieces after meeting a bone, and all sensible big-game rifle rounds penetrate far enough anyway unless something like that happens.

Use something like plywood to simulate the bone, fairly close to the front edge of the wet pack.

But yes, penetration depth and the like are quite inconsistent.

[Absintheur]

As you can see from my original post penetration is not what I am concerned with at this point, I want to know if the round will expand. I know the round will penetrate, perhaps even over penetrate depending on velocity. But the Wolf 7.62X39 HP has questionable expansion and given the size of the cavity in this I wonder if it will turn into ball.

Soaked newsprint will give good info on expansion but not penetration. We have shot it side by side with Vyse gel and while penetration has varied widely the expansion between the two medium is very consistent. Evan roams the streets on recycle pick up days and gathers newspapers for expansion testing and if it is good enough for the author of "Stopping Power" it is good enough for me. Again I am not concerned with the depth of penetration, unless the bullet fragments and comes apart I will assume it will penetrate. I will do a jug test as well as I originally stated but I don't consider that to be a valid penetration measurement either.

Weather permitting will do this tomorrow...raining right now but should have some openings in the AM.

[Reddbecca]

I fail to see what soaked newsprint can offer you that water jugs don't.

[umloth]

I'll be interested to see the difference between rounds from the carbine and those from the pistol. To be honest, I'd never heard of this round until you started this thread.

[Reddbecca]

Originally Posted by umloth

I'll be interested to see the difference between rounds from the carbine and those from the pistol. To be honest, I'd never heard of this round until you started this thread.

You're joking, right? The 7.62 Tokarev has been prominently featured in various BOT tests.

[umloth]

Originally Posted by Reddbecca

You're joking, right? The 7.62 Tokarev has been prominently featured in various BOT tests.

Sorry Redd. Very few of the Commie calibres interest me enough to ay much attention. Kind of like 9x18, couldn't tell you much about it or the guns chambered for it.

[Absintheur]

Ok...weather sucked Saturday and I stayed home but got out to the range today and I have some interesting results. The water testing was done in 1 gallon milk jugs and the newsprint was completely soaked for 24 hours and was dripping when shot. In other words the newsprint was 100% saturated.

Water proved problematic as I expected it to, most high velocity HPs don't perform well in water, they tend to come apart and that is what happened here. The 1st round completely fragmented with the majority of debris being in the 4th jug. The next round lost it's jacket in the 4th jug and the core was in the 5th.



The next two went into soaked newsprint, both went about 8 1/2 inches. Average expansion is .41 which is pretty good for a 30 cal handgun round. A Romanian surplus round completely penetrated 18 inches of wet newsprint and was not recovered.



All three cores showed a distinct hexagonal expansion that evidently come from the six score lines on the jacket.



This ammo shot to the same POA as the surplus FMJ and I had zero malfunctions through 50 rounds in the CZ52. It would not feed in the Papashaw however. I think the result in the newsprint as far as expansion will duplicate in gel when I get a chance to test there and I would expect about 14 inches of penetration in the gel but will have to test for that later.

[Bard]

0.41 inches, huh? While that's pretty good, and I do love my Cz-52... my 1911 starts off with a big ol' 0.452 and goes up from there.

The Cz-52 is certainly a fun gun, but this and other results on the web show it should not be someone's first choice in home defense, especially with FMJ. But, if this is the gun and ammo you have at hand, it will work.

Too bad about the PPsh41 not feeding it though. Those pictures would have been interesting, as well. The extra barrel length would have produced 200 to 400 fps more...I am guessing it would equate to 0.50 inches of total expansion.

By the way, one of the reasons that wet newspaper has been used for years as a target media is that it simulates the meat of the human bod---meat as in muscle, fat, and organs. It's not perfect, but it works. Water jugs work too. Hell, I have a friend who uses Knox gelatin (as in the jell-o kids eat with their fingers) and swears it's as good as ballistic gelatin--he works for Phoenix P.D. Use whatever media works for you...just have fun with it. Water and jugs is what i use, as they are a LOT easier to clean up then soggy paper.

Thanks for sharing the test, Ab.

[Absintheur]

The CZ was also very polite with the brass, granted it was 20 feet away from me but it was all in a 3 foot square area...and yes it is reloadable.

I think one reason people don't like wet newsprint is they just don't soak it long enough. I want it completely submerged in water for at least 12 hours...it really needs to be saturated and should be dripping when it is shot. I just line a cardboard box with a couple trashbags, stack in the paper and keep adding water.

[Old_Painless]

Originally Posted by Absintheur

Water proved problematic as I expected it to, most high velocity HPs don't perform well in water, they tend to come apart and that is what happened here. The 1st round completely fragmented with the majority of debris being in the 4th jug. The next round lost it's jacket in the 4th jug and the core was in the 5th.

Very interesting.

Four water jugs at 6 inches each, indicates 24 inches of water, which equates to 12 inches of ballistic gelatin. That meets the FBI standard.

The fragmentation of the bullets is not optimal, but at least it expanded and reached the minimum penetration. That is a good sign.

Perhaps Wolf has some good JHP ammo here.

Thanks for the tests and report.

[umloth]

Nicely done Sir.